"Fair Play to Those Who Dare to Dream" "Make Art"

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[هذا هو الحكم]

I'm confused, I thought I told you to shove off unless you're going to help me.... useful advice I don't need... 'distribution' is what I do need, do you do anything else apart from put things on this site, try signing something for distribution, at least you would be helping new talent, 'showcases' are a crap waste of time, they never helped anyone.. what is all this music is art is film blah blah bollox, life is art is life imitating art.. trah lah, Little Ricahrd and Jerry Lee did it 50 years ago, they pushed the boundaries beyong anything that we can comprehend.. so much so that it fucked them up and chewed them out over-and-over... p.s its independent, not indipendent , you're Indie-Boy, you should be able to spell your own name - now thats Art - piss-art(ist)

www.marshallstar.co.uk

p.s

Hi Indie

Listen to my latest release by ne signing LUCY KELLOW.

Shes raw talent and needs the exposure...

Go to www.turtlemusic.co.uk/id4.html and listen to STARS

Terry Cullern

www.turtlemusic.co.uk

Well I can't fault most of what you say, except .....
Why list the worst capitalist distribution organisations, mostly Yanks who just want your money. and not really keeping up with the technologies..
Anyone who goes the Cdbaby etc route has to be quit daft ,lots of work for very little return and very bad for the planet.
I would recommend Tunecore , who are fairer and more helpful, Plus Reverbnation, set up that does most of the work for you, and the Tourdates. If you are a UK band you really need that function from a UK base.
UK bands are closer together, so the brighter ones should be looking for physical networks ie real gigs with people made of flesh.

Ahh yes, I should have mentioned Reverbnation. I wanted to try and strike up a deal with them at some point. Really good service and lots of embeddable-ness.
First off, I'm delighted for Glen and Marketa - its nice to see something low budget that was created for the love of the project going on to widescale critical and commercial success (the film had a budget of £74,000 and has grossed over $7 million in the US alone). As the man says, "make music to be bought, not music to be sold" - and yes, there is a difference.

In terms of how the industry is changing, yes, its is possible to have independent success stories - Arcade Fire, Damien Rice and MUSE (who never had a record contract as far as I know) spring to mind.

Of course, there are lots of different approaches - from our perspective it makes more sense for us to work with a team of people to back us up and it is our intention not to pursue the Independent route but rather to release our album through a record label.

Finally, thanks for using our song to illustrate youtube! We've made a video for it ourselves in the interim - 36 hours of dancing in Berlin. See it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xy2PZrrNRo
Ooh, I've already checked all the videos. I know you as the band that dance. :-)
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I think this is all good advice. I've taken this approach on the internet: try everything (legitimate) that is available to musicians to market music, insofar as it is possible, and then work harder on the things that give you results. Of course, the music needs to be good.

I have to disagree with Gnome above about CDBaby. The vast majority of my sales through them come from the digital distribution they provide, not the physical CDs. I don't think the set-up fee of $35 is excessive, and they've made my music available on every digital service known to man. As for what they keep, for example, for iTunes sales I get 67% of the retail price, leaving the rest for Apple and CDBaby to share. iTunes is by far the largest digital retailer of my music, and I'm glad to give that cut to CDBaby and Apple in return for the exposure and sales I get from being in every iTunes store across the globe, within days of sending my release to CDBaby, without otherwise lifting a finger. That's my personal experience with them, and for me it has been worth it; I would gladly recommend them to any artist or friend.

One more thing: independent content creators still have to deal with piracy. It doesn't matter how little you spent to make your content, if you have no revenue stream from it, you will not recoup; this is the same issue affecting the record labels. I know my music is available on torrent sites, and that people are actively stealing it. It's nice to know they want it, but it sucks that they won't pay for it. Now I need to make more money off of merch, touring, content-related advertisements on my website, etc. Anyone on here had success with that?

And P.S. about the Arcade Fire: the Canadian government has provided them with money to do their thing through what is called Factor (and related agencies such as PromoFact, etc.) This agency gives tonnes of cash to Canadian musicians for albums, touring, videos, and so on. It's a good thing, and helps Canadian music thrive, but it is the government standing in for record companies, using taxpayers' money.
Cheers Freddy, never knew about the Canadian government thing.

Insightful stuff. :-)

IB

PS. Still in Nashville?
No, back home for a few gigs, but back to Nashville in April. Things are still looking good out there!
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Thanks for sending this link. Maybe it's not just just a toss up between the music business and the indie routes and whose got the biggest sales.

It's more about the democratisation of music making and distribution. Clearly there are still many for whom the music industry route is the way to go but so many people are making music now that at the end of the day the music business is only going to invest in a small % of that.

Some would never be picked up by the music business and others may not aim for it according to their personal ethics. Now at least there are other routes to get your music out there and maybe make a reasonable career, full or part time regardless of interest from the majors.

For me the important thing is that now Cliff Presley and the String-busters from Grimsby (whoever they might be!) can get their music out there at all and, depending on what they put into it, can achieve some kind of success.

How the music business responds or survives or updates it's business model is not what interests me (although suing 14 year olds for illegal downloads or snooping on people over the internet is not going to win them friends or influence our wallets!) - what's important is that there's viable alternatives for musicians to have a least a modest career, and you at least seem to be recognising this.

Now about that million dollar deal:)....

I am sorry but I don't know how you can condone the CDBaby system, sending piles of CDs back and forth over the Atlantic, using air miles and creating unnecessary pollution. Don't you care about the planet?
It might work well over there but remember you are talking to the UK here.
I didn't realize that we were talking about the environmental impact of CDBaby; I thought we were just talking about whether they do a good job or not. And I don't send piles of CDs across the Atlantic because a) I'm in Canada; and b) As I mentioned above, by far the majority of my CDBaby sales come from digital retailers, and I happen to think they are good at digital distribution. Besides, there are UK sites that are doing the exact same thing.

Of course I care about the planet. Who said otherwise? You speak about 'condoning' the CDBaby system as if it was single-handedly causing global warming. You send your CDs to them and they send them to buyers, just like the distribution of any other physical consumer product in the world. In fact, it's probably less harmful than the distribution of other products, which are manufactured in China, shipped to the buyer, then shipped to the distributor, then shipped to the retailer, who either sells the product from their stores, or ships it out one more time. And why aren't we attacking Amazon? When somebody buys my CD from them, they require that I ship it to them, and them they send it out. I understand that, while aircraft emissions account for only 4-9% of the total climate change impact of human activity, it is also the mode of freight transport that produces the most emissions. But I'd also love to get a record deal, which would hopefully involve touring around the world (burning up loads of fuel), and having my CDs shipped to retailers all over the globe (burning up loads of fuel).

Most economic activity contributes in some way to global warming. Don't unfairly single out CDBaby.
It was only CDbaby that was mentioned here
I didn't mean to get all grumpy on you :)

Thanks for reminding me about Reverbnation. I'm signing up now.
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You hit so many of the right points. Sooooo many. I have a few friends in local bands that have the capacity to be simply amaaaaazing, but without the vital network, it's an upward struggle.

I should at least get into helping them with my graphic design services. :) Then we'll at least get somewhere.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


I enjoyed reading this IB, very insightful. However, is there an argument that all of this sign up with this; put a video on that; write a blog about this; check your analytics etc etc etc takes all of the fun out of being in a band? (writing songs, playing gigs, handing out flyers to strangers, copping off in the back of a Transit, partying, having fun etc) We're not all the most computer savy people in the world and maybe it's a class thing but i know some bands that don't have access to the net (I have to go round my parents for net access which isn't the most convenient thing in the world). Are these now irrelevant regardless of talent? Have they no chance at all? Or do we have to hire in our more intelligent friends to do it for us. Some days I just wish they'd turn the internet off.

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There are two sides to it as I've known signed acts who didn't even have an email address let alone a myspace. In that post I quoted I also talked about how some artists spend 70% of their time updating online stuff rather than writing songs.

The way I see it, nothing is essential except the talent. But any activity that increases the odd's investment, fans, better distribution etc is a good thing. So the more involved your material is in that I guess the better the odds are. One band I;ve been working with recently has no knowledge or intention of doing that sort of stuff, but through the strength of their music they can pick and choose from a long list of fans those who are quite tech-savvy enough to help them out. In fact they've got three or four fans to pretty much organise a whole online campaign. I think this is probably the best of doing it, or at least to some degree. As the more time you've got for writing and recording the better.
This is really deeeeep.
But interesting.
[auda]*xx
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The music industry is a business. What do businesses exist for? To make profit. What's the easiest way to do this? Spend a little, accumulate alot.

What's cheaper, release a single of female solo artist A, then move on and release a single of female solo artist B etc... or stick with female solo artist A and keep releasing singles and albums cos the initial cost in setting up that artist needs to be recouped and capitalised on until she's too old and doesn't look good in a silver bikini writhing around in a video? Then find another female solo artist A and got through the tried and tested motions again - hell - why not use the same old songs (X-factor a prime example)

Musicians now have greater access to music making facilites. Some basic software is actually free and hardware is relatively cheap too. This means there is a lot of good and not so good out there vi-ing for attention. Do A&R scouts really trawl through it all? All those demos that get sent in - does anyone really listen to all of it? Do the people in the industry who have sufficient clout really have that much time for that many submissions? You tell me if you're in teh know?

To those of you who sell your material through other means I take my hat of to you and much resepct. Cos while the rest of us wait to be discovered, you're the ones making the money and building a fan base, so that when you do get "discovered" you've done much of the leg work already. And hence, the music industry doesn't have to do quite as much work as they would have had to for Joe Bloggs and his bedroom band. (I'm taking the p*ss out of myself here by the way)

As for global warming - the fact that we are all sat in front of a computer on the internet isn't exactly helping now is it?

I heard about this film on Radio 2 this morning- I'm intrigued and wil be buying it.

Good luck to you all.

Mozart wouldn't have had any attention from record labels because he wasn't hot like Enrique Iglesias. Neither was Beethoven, Chopin, Haydn...Brahms was good looking in his youth but was fat and bald later in life.

None of them had "video appeal".


Bach was fat. Handel was fat and bald. Liszt had a big nose. Beethoven had pockmarks. Ravel was short.

So...can you tell where I'm going with this?

It's really about having choices and assessing your aims and potential not an either / or thing.

The music business route is for some and for others it maybe not be.

For some age groups or in some sets of circumstances it may preclude them from being a full time artist touring the world and yet they have still have something to say in a musical way.

Sandie shaw said in her auto bio that she would rather be a part-time pop star - working it around bringing up her family etc.

There are now more older people than younger who have responsibilites but who are all now 'rock n roll generation' who are still inspired to make music and have something valid to say. The new alternative models are great for them.

It may not make them millionaires but do they need that much money? A decent or subsidiary income can be made by those who want to and have a viable product now and they can still be around for the kids or main career.

It's great too for those who consider themselves 'artists' in a more serious sense. They can have control over their product, the way it's used and marketed.

Some may not want money for it - just an outlet - the affirmation from those who do listen.

It's about choices and developing alternatives whether capitalist or cooperative structures. The music business will never go short of artists - more people than ever now make music of various kinds. The thing is now that if the Corporate door is closed to you - there are alternatives and choices. That's good in my book.

You have to choose which is for you - the 'sit and wait' to be discovered or the pro active route (or even a bit of both). If more musicians were of a more cooperative frame of mind and helped each other - who knows what resources could be developed! Hats off to the Gnome Label who are spearheading work in that respect.

There's art and then there's commerce and where they meet is possibly more of a coincidence than anything else. Most media corporations are selling a bankable product rather than pushing an artistic envelope or even thinking in terms of creative merit winning out over other factors. They may respect fine art but they are thinking in terms of an established process of advertising, marketing, and sales so the divine light of high artistic inspiration is not the thing they are on a lifelong quest to uncover and give to the masses.

It's this quirky, touchy, and somewhat strained relationship between artists and media companies that defines the experience both for aspiring professional musicians ( and writers, painters, etc.) as well as for the A & R people tasked to search out talent and respond to it. They are both struggling to work within the overpowering conventions of the marketplace.

I personally think the business world would do well to push past those conventions and take chances on art that stands on its own merits rather than staying within the boundaries of work that just snaps into place easily as a piece of the big machine.

It's the art marked by self-evident substance, depth, and originality , be it coming from Michaelangelo, Beethoven, or Jimi Hendrix, that makes a permanent place for itself in the history of human creativity. The average safe and marketable product comes and goes and this is what sets great art apart from pop culture commodities. Great art has permanence.
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As someone who has been working throughout the media for the last six years and is now very much more aware of how it all works and where it's going, (especially broadcast media) there's a lot of good advice in the above post.

In my opinion, a lot of what bands do when they record a demo or a video is, though many don't want to admit it, create a marketing and ssales tool to get a message across to people, be they fans, press or industry.

Essentially, you're creating an advert and in this day and age it's very important to make sure that it cuts through and communicates your message concisely.

However, at it's very heart it's so important to offer people genuinely compelling and engaging content as people just won't bother otherwise. Afterall, would you? If you went on someone's Myspace (or Vox, natch) how long would you give a band before you turned thier video off? Ten seconds? Less? What would it take? A haircut you didn't approve of? A dodgy lyric?

Personally, I think the future for bands like us (with no disrespect to people like Columbia who are free to offer us a deal at any point!) lies in a DIY, strength in numbers philosophy. In the business world this is better known as affiliate marketing (I think!) but essentially waiting for a knight in shining armour to ride in 'aint gonna happen - we need to talk to each other's audiences, network and where possible do things together to cause a bigger splash than we would individually. The way people are consuming music is changing, but thier appetite and desire for it is as strong as ever, the problem is cutting through when people have so much choice.

Personally, a lot of bands fall down because they follow a mechanical route in trying to get themselves out there instead of playing to thier strengths and being creative about it.

Not that I want to plug an idea we're kicking about at the moment, but we're currently looking at putting together a compilation CD as a promotional tool for bands (think of them as flyers rather than a big thing).

The idea is that everyone submits one track and if we can get about 12 or so really good unsigned bands with a following each on there it'll mean low wastage and keep the costs right down, especially as (hopefully) we're talking about already recorded tracks. We know people who could do artwork and design for next to nothing if not free, so that wouldn't be an issue either.

You give them to your fans at gigs and hopefully they'll listen to the whole thing, like a few other bands on there, check them out and go to the gigs, etc. We'd set up a Myspace to drive traffic towards from the CD itself (which would then drive to specific bands) thus avoiding the need for a big bumpf on the sleeve again keeping the costs right down. It's just an idea at the moment, but could be a good supporting tool to get into people's heads - a best of UK unsigned type thing. We could probably get somewhere like Rough Trade to stock a few, but really it would be a viral promotional tool to cross-over into other people's audiences. If anyone is interested, give us a shout...

Alexei

"Ahh yes, I should have mentioned Reverbnation. I wanted to try and strike up a deal with them at some point. Really good service and lots of embeddable-ness." why indie man why, you are a Columbian, Columbians already run things at CBS at RCA etc etc etc, Columbians run things at Last.FM and they have loads of embed's that you have access to so why take Reverb Nation as well. To be honest it's becoming hard to get away from the Columbians, they do insist on taking over just about everything, cant Columbia leave a few platforms alone so we don't have to deal with them. PLEASE


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[this is good]

Once...what an Amazing movie!! But the music is more so. I checked out The Frames when they toured with Bob Dylan...I was on the edge of my seat...I'd never heard of them before then I hear them live...what a treat...they had me stuck!! Then I saw Once....Glen Hassard has a way to pull in the listener with passion and intensity.

It seems so hard nowadays for anyone to get a foot in the door of music...and there is so much ground work to cover...I mean you could sit at a computer all day just trying to drum up support...I mean it's fun to do and good to interact with other artists...but doesn't that mean less time writing/creating.

You raise some excellent points and suggestions...I'm gonna take them on board. Thanks for the great post!!

Take Care

Louise :-)

Glad to help :-)

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